My Response to 48 Hours

Last Friday, the CBS News Magazine 48 Hours broadcast a story about Everquest as part of a show about addiction. This broadcast showed such a serious lack of journalistic integrity and left so many questions unanswered that I feel compelled to respond. Clearly, in this case true journalism was set aside, and CBS instead came up with what they thought was a juicy premise and then manufactured the facts to fit, purposefully ignoring the multitude of other facts that repudiated their predetermined storyline. In doing so, they insulted and belittled the hundreds of thousands of us who play and enjoy online games and have no difficulty integrating our hobby into our regular daily lives. (I’m including the DAoC site in this editorial because there is no doubt that had they focused on that game, their premise would have remained the same). The title of their show was “Addiction”, so let me start with the word itself. All too often our media adopts a viable scientific or medical term and warps it far beyond its original meaning to the point where the term loses all actual meaning. Addiction is one of those terms. I am sorry, but Everquest is not addictive. Neither is eating, working, having sex, or any of the myriad other activities our press loves to call addictive. To call Everquest addictive is an insult to the many people out there who are struggling to overcome the many serious and valid debilitating addictions in our world. An addictive substance is something you need, not want, and no matter how you look at it, nobody needs to play Everquest. Playing Everquest is definitely a lot of fun, and some may prefer playing it to doing any of the other activities life may offer, even to the point of ignoring things society deems important. This is not an addiction, but rather a lack of self control. A man sweating with the anguish of withdrawal from his normal dose of heroin is addicted and in need to help to kick his habit. His body needs that heroin. A man who plays Everquest to the point where he ignores his family, job and life is simply out of control. He may want to keep playing the game, but he does not need it. There is a difference. CBS’s premise that this is some sort of evil game that sucks the mind out of its players and causes them to lose control of their lives is simply ridiculous. If someone loses control of his life, it is likely that he would have found some other way to do it even if he did not find Everquest. It makes for a juicy headline, but really is tabloid journalism at its worst. Even more tabloid journalism was the presentation itself. Is there any doubt that 48 Hours interviewed hundreds of people and kept rejecting person after person for being too normal or because the game did not have any negative impact on their lives before picking their eventual subjects? Even the player they eventually did decide to film hardly supported their premise, although they used every trick in their book to make it seem that he did. It’s obvious they had no intention of presenting an unbiased article and routinely rejected anything that contradicted the story they wanted to make. They instead wanted to shock the viewer and make him believe that there are hundreds of thousands of mentally unstable gaming addicts playing this online video game who are probably just steps away from killing themselves and who knows how many others. Obviously the CBS motto is to never let the facts get in the way of a good story. The player they finally chose to interview was a doctor who played Everquest about 20 hours a week. He seemed to be a fairly normal person with a normal family life. They obviously chose him because his wife complained that she wished that he spent less time playing Everquest and more time with his family. The implication was clear that this was an otherwise good and normal man hopelessly corrupted by this evil game. Funny, but I saw something else. Here is a man who manages to hold down a high pressure job, is a loving husband, properly raises his children and provides for his family. Yet CBS wants to excoriate him for stealing 20 hours a week of private time for himself, because he does it playing a video game and, quite frankly, they think that’s weird. They showed him sitting there fighting something in the game and then zoomed in to the reporter so that she could arch her eyebrows and look properly horrified that anyone would be silly enough to waste his time on something like that. “Look”, she said, “he even has trouble looking away from the screen when I’m talking to him”. Oh if only he hadn’t met this evil game, he would surely be the perfect husband and father. Let me add something up here. CBS sports is a very profitable part of their network. Watching two Sunday NFL games takes a good 7 hours. A single college game on Saturday is another 3 ½ hours and there are games on all day long. Add in a couple baseball, basketball or hockey games during the week and you can easily add up to 20 hours watching sports on TV for just your average sports fan. A dedicated sports fan would of course go much higher than that. I’m guessing if that was his hobby, 48 Hours would have never come knocking at his door. “Man ignores family to watch football” does not make as tantalizing a headline as “Man becomes addicted to evil video game”. I don’t see CBS urging their sports division to put a warning label at the bottom of every football game warning that watching sports can be addictive and cause you to spend time away from your family. His wife should be glad he is not going out to the bars every night with his friends like many other men and women and that he instead found a way to blow off steam that keeps him at home and available when she needs him and that comes at a relatively small cost. She was never asked, but would any of us be surprised to find out that the wife who is complaining so much about her husband’s game playing spends far more than 20 hours a week watching television or shopping. I would think just about anyone spends at least 20 hours a week on personal projects and hobbies. Playing golf, sports, television, reading, and shopping are a few obvious examples of activities people spend long hours at, but there are plenty of others. Of course that wouldn’t fit into CBS’s concept for the show, so those facts simply got ignored. Besides, they want to make him look weird, not normal, and pointing that out would simply remind people that this isn’t really all that odd after all. He’s playing a video game, so there must be something wrong with him. This is after all a tabloid and not a real news show. 48 Hours also interviewed Ben Stein about his son’s Everquest playing. I guess this was to show that even pseudo-celebrities like him are not immune to this scourge. (If they wanted to interview a celebrity, why not a real one who actually plays Everquest like Curt Schilling? – Oh yeah, Curt would have told them they were full of it and blown a hole in their whole false and demeaning premise). Am I the only one struck by Mr. Stein’s method of stopping his son from playing EQ? He sent him off to a boarding school where, according to Mr. Stein, they did not allow games like that to be played. After a stint of time away from Everquest, and not coincidentally away from his parents, he was suddenly cured. (and I’m glad we were spared the manufactured scenes of his son lying in bed at the boarding house, body shaking and sweating profusely, and mewing pitifully about “just one more orc, please just one more”). Well, Ben, why didn’t you just not allow those games at your house? If your son is playing video games to what you consider an excess, maybe you should just put your foot down and pull the plug on his computer. If he instead spent his time downloading online porn, would you have let him do that for a while until you finally threw up your hands and sent him off to a porn-free school somewhere? Who is the problem here? The teenager who plays a game to excess, or for that matter does anything to excess, or the parent who allows it? Sorry Ben, but don’t blame the manufacturer of a game for your bad parenting. Finally, there is poor Mrs. Woolley. It must be terrible to lose a son, and we all feel sympathy for her. But eventually she is going to have to face up to the fact that Everquest did not have anything to do with it. Shawn was a troubled and mentally disturbed child and had been so for all of his life. Something was bound to set him off eventually. Maybe it was indeed something that happened to him in the game. Everquest is after all populated with real people, and the inability to interact with people seemed to be at the root of his mental illness. It really could have been just about anything that brought about his suicide. The unfortunate fact in life is that sometimes bad things happen and there’s not much we can do about it. Blaming Everquest for her son’s death probably makes Mrs. Woolley feel better and gives her an outlet for her grief, and you know what? I really have no problem with that. Let her deal with her grief in whatever manner she wishes. What is wrong is for a news outlet like CBS to exploit her grief for the sake of their ratings. And make no mistake that this is pure exploitation on their part. “Satanic Video game convinces man to commit suicide” was just too good a headline for them to resist. The tabloid journalists who make up the 48 Hours staff must have truly started salivating when they thought that one up. So they hauled their cameras into that poor woman’s living room and helped feed her delusion so that they could broadcast it to the rest of the world and sell a lot of commercials. Frankly, this part makes me sicker than any other part of their story. Manufacturing facts to make up a false story you hope will bring big ratings makes you a poor journalist, but exploiting a mother’s suffering and grief from the death of her son for those ratings makes you a poor human being. The journalists who made their trek to the Woolley residence to get their juicy video game murder story were simply parasites feeding on that poor woman’s grief and delusions. I’d like to think that Susan Spencer, the journalist who did this story, has a little more trouble sleeping a night because of her actions, but unfortunately I doubt it bothers her in the least. It is sad to see that the network of the great Walter Cronkite has sunk to such depths. I had always thought journalism was about facts first and story second. Yet CBS managed to do an entire story on the supposedly addictive and evil nature of this game without displaying a single fact to prove it and by ignoring the many facts that disprove it. In the end they made fun of something they know nothing about, exploited something that should be pitied instead, and succeeded in nothing more than insulting the hundreds of thousands of people who consider playing Everquest and other video games a normal, healthy and enjoyable part of their lives. For what it’s worth, they also lost my respect and viewer ship. If you wish to contact CBS about this show, here is the contact information: 48 Hours 524 West 57th St. New York, NY 10019 E-MAIL: 48hours@cbsnews.com. PHONE: (212) 975-3247
Tags: General, News

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hola 90
# Dec 06 2012 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
Bold Text holaSmiley: nodSmiley: coolSmiley: madSmiley: smile chaooooooooo
RE: Just as addictive as...
# Feb 02 2004 at 11:30 AM Rating: Default
I have no desire to go on a lenthy or passionate rant about how video games are destroying lives and blah, blah, blah... However, I have seen what addiction, to any media, can do. Sitting in front of a computer screen for 20-50 hrs a week is no different than sitting in front of the television, and can lead to a lot of trouble. Television broadcasters are out to gain an audience, hence the sensationalism and hype, but so are gaming companies. Hobbies are fine in moderation, but when a hobby interferes with your work, family, and/or health it is a serious problem. I didn't see the 48 Hrs special, I don't watch very much television, and I have only stumbled across this site because I am currently utilizing my computer for a study I am doing on the internet and its effects on our culture but, if you ask me, TV, the internet, computer games, and console games are all the same thing. Frankly, I think Americans, myself included, should spend less time in front of screens and monitors, under the influence of profit driven companies, and more time with family, friends, and their communities. If all the people who spent 20 or more hours a week playing video games or watching TV instead spent just some of those hours helping to feed the needy, helping "addicts" to get help and/or stay clean, or working toward some other positive social agenda perhaps we wouldn't feel the need to spend so much time "hiding" from the world outside.
uhgb
# Jan 09 2004 at 5:07 PM Rating: Default
you suck your moma
uhgb
# Jan 09 2004 at 5:07 PM Rating: Default
you suck your moma
uhgb
# Jan 09 2004 at 5:07 PM Rating: Default
you suck your moma
uhgb
# Jan 09 2004 at 5:07 PM Rating: Default
you suck your moma
anonynous
# Jan 09 2004 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
you suck
help
# Dec 02 2003 at 10:41 PM Rating: Default
hello can i talk to someone with a delsional disorder
help me with my homework
# Dec 02 2003 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
hi..im a student and i have to do a report on delsoinal disorder?can anyone help me answer sum questions
help me with my homework
# Dec 02 2003 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
hi..im a student and i have to do a report on delsoinal disorder?can anyone help me answer sum questions
help me with my homework
# Dec 02 2003 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
hi..im a student and i have to do a report on delsoinal disorder?can anyone help me answer sum questions
48 hours
# Sep 27 2003 at 5:22 AM Rating: Default
CBS.......
Why would mom kick him out?
# May 07 2003 at 11:39 AM Rating: Default
Somebody tell me this if Shawn Wooley was diagnosed with Depression and Schiziod personalities what did the mom think was gonna happen if she kicked him out of the house on his own. I had a cousin who had schiziod personalities and she ended up shooting herself but no one would have ever dreamed of kicking her out on her own. But what do i know i just dont understand if someone has those mental disorders why you would kick them out even if they were playing a game you didnt like.
just playing devil's advocate
# Feb 25 2003 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
Addiction: 1. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance.
2. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.

Technically everquest can be an addiction. Addiction is another word for a person who has a lack of self control or willpower towards something.

Other than that, good stuff.

edited to add: Heroin is used as an example. If you're kicking heroin, you don't die. Being "addicted" to heroin is also a lack of self control.

And I did send a letter to CBS about their biased opinion on EQ.

Edited, Tue Feb 25 08:33:20 2003
RE: just playing devil's advocate
# Mar 10 2003 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
Playing the devil's advocate is good for shedding light on things. I thought I'd add to this: what CBS is talking about is called 'mental addiction' and what the Author is referring to is known as 'physical addiction.'

Heroin is a good example of the latter, and it is physically addicting. You *can* die from cold turkey withdrawl if you are very far along, because your body really does need it. Another word for physical addiction is chemical dependency.

Mental addictions are not necessarily as easy to shake as the author implies, but neither are they something that is produced by what they are addicted to itself.
RE: just playing devil's advocate
# Oct 11 2003 at 8:35 AM Rating: Default
You're referring to a psychological addiciton which, as any first-semester psychology student knows, is harder to defeat than a physical addiction.
RE: just playing devil's advocate
# Jun 15 2003 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
Any responses?
# Feb 10 2003 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default
Has BS.. er CBS even bothered with a responce to the emails and letters sent? I have read their so called "Program Facts" and you would think they would be defending their and I quote straight from their page "...the most innovative prime-time news series...In its unique approach, 48 Hours delves into a single subject, examining it from multiple angles with its saturation coverage and action-driven style..." and you would think that "...The broadcast has received critical acclaim reflected in almost 20 Emmy awards, a George Foster Peabody Award, and an Ohio State Award." Would spend more time reasearching their topics and showing all sides of the story rather than showing this one sided peice of $***.
CBS emphasis on BS has lost any respect I once had for it. They have lost my viewershp permentally.

Ashana
Lv 9 Ranger
Bristalebane server
Equest
# Feb 05 2003 at 10:22 PM Rating: Default
Equest.. is a game that can cause mad addictions.
be careful.
Satanic?
# Jan 31 2003 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
okay, Everquest is Satanic. Sure. Compared to what? Compared to a normal, healthy indulgence of promoting and condoning the death of inocent civilians by watching a multitude of high speed car chases displayed for the sake of ratings, and probably only happening in the first place because they are displayed?

Wait.... no.

Or maybe it's satanic compared to the hundreds of thousands of prostitutes on our streets addicted to crack cocaine?

Nope. Not that either.

Wait! I got it! Maybe it's satanic when compared to the shows glamorizing black magic and satanism! That's it! EQ is more satanic than the worship of satan! Shows about people being endowed with "powers" which are based loosely on the secular beliefs of the like two or three real satanists ever to exist are less satanic. Why? They make money for the networks and EQ don't.

You know why they did this story? This is the media's way of getting even with anyone who don't do what they want. They probably wanted to TV series based on EQ, SOE said "no", and they said "We'll show them!"

Yeah. Sure. Just like every other time they tried it, they only succeeded in showing the whole nation what asses they really are, and let's not forget the free advertising EQ got.

Maybe one day, they will actually get concerned about REAL addictions in the world, or REAL sin, or REAL satanism, or whatever... Nope. Those things make the reporters money so that they can go home, shoot up with heroine, and laugh at their story while sacrificing the ethics media USED to have to their dark gods, the 20, 50, and 100 dollar bills.
Again with this stuff
# Jan 29 2003 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
Waaayyy back in the early 80's the media went after the "satanic" game Dungeons and Dragons.
They said it promoted violence and suicide. After
that..it was video games..after that..it was Ozzie..after that..it was Gansta Rap..after that
it was video games (again) and now its online stuff. Can't wait to see what the next "satanic"
indulgence we will have.
what a joke
# Jan 28 2003 at 12:03 PM Rating: Default
What strikes me as funny is the networks would love nothing more than so see people addicted to there programming.Viewers = sponsors = money no matter what the cost!!!!. You can see how they profile there viewers as to what there watching.Have you ever watched a football game where damn near every comercial is 10 broads running around half naked.Sure I love football for the game always have, but how does it look when dad has his 7 to 10 year old son with him watching football and tits and *** are there for him to look at???? Please excuse my language but I'm sure you all get my point that if any given network could find a way to addict the public to tune into there programming 15 hours a day they would do it in a heartbeat. Then they do an investigative report like the one on everquest accusing the game of being the cause of all these poor peoples problems. The report should have been based on the failures of that moron Ben Stien to be a good parent or that woman who didnt seem to care much about her kid until he killed himself his room or apartment was a pig sti .If he was so mentally unstable where in the hell was she.IT didnt seem like she offered much help to the guy did she.BUT!!!! when 48 hours came knocking there she was.Maybe if she cared a bit more for her son this all could have been avoided.Hey Ben take your kid out to a football game and park his *** in front of the cheer leaders or better yet you could have some nice family time watching beer commercials on TV during the game.EQ is a fun game! I enjoy it very much I play anywhere from 20 to 30 hours a week and sometimes I play 5 and I only play when it does not interfere with my wife and I who I love very much .BUT if your having problems and play the game a rediculous amount of time like 12 to 15 hours a day well My suggestion to you is get some help there are many things in life your missing out on .
Hey
# Jan 23 2003 at 9:08 AM Rating: Default
Does anyone know Ben Stein's Son's E-Mail? If So, Please pass along an invite to the guild: Black Moon, on Mith Marr. and he should tell the officer that Trioxin Sent him. Or if you could send his Emial addy to Cheshirecat1234@yahoo.com it would be appreciated. Thanks

Dracan Nephadious Dracul
~:}{:~
Hmmmmm
# Jan 15 2003 at 12:47 PM Rating: Default
Hundreds of thousands spend $20 a month on EQ (Isp and Fees)

How many spend $50 - $100 a month on Cable tv?

Hell, I couldn't afford to watch the damn special :)
48 Hours
# Jan 15 2003 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
I did not see the 48 Hours interview. Why? Because I choose not to watch television. I choose to get my news AND my entertainment from the internet. I realize that this has been mentioned before.. but I suspect that this fact plays a part in the TV reporting villification of the computer industry.

Just for the record.. I AM mentally unstable. I have suffered from depression for most of my life. Chronic depression with many major episodes. Sometimes are better than others... but at 39 years old with a husband and 3 children I know that suicide is the ultimate in selfish acts. And I have chosen to not consider that path. But what makes a person choose that path? It certainly isn't a video game. It's lack of hope. And for a young person that is very hard. Everything seems so cut and dried at 20 years old. I tried to commit suicide myself then. I'm thankful everyday that I failed.

There are times when I do use Everquest as a crutch. An escape from the 'real world'... and when things are bad I spend more time there. But even so.. there are clean laundry, healthy meals and clean and healthy kids and pets in my house. As a stay at home mom... with a very busy husband... there are times when my only interaction with the outside world IS Everquest. My friends and family work. It's nice to be able to log on and chat with my guildmates. But before Everquest I would escape into books or movies. Now at least I interact with others at least on a superficial level. I've had some 'gaming friends' for years now.

As for the grieving mother, I feel bad for her. But Everquest did not cause him to take his life. He chose to take his life. It is nice to be able to blame someone else. The mother blaming the gaming industry. Some posters here blaming the mother. But there is only one person to 'blame'... the boy. As much as you would LIKE to.. you can not force someone into 'recovery'.. they have to see the problem themselves before they can do anything about it. Just as you can not force an alcoholic to stop drinking. You can remove him from the situation forcably. But when it's all said and done.. he is the only one that can 'cure' himself.

I'm sorry that a young man lost his life. But having 'been there, done that' I can tell you right now. It wasn't Everquest...

RE: 48 Hours
# Jan 15 2003 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
Wow, that was one of the best things I have read about this topic. It is nice to get the view of someone who has been there done that. It helps to put it all into another perspective.
RE: 48 Hours
# Jan 31 2003 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
I have been there as well, and I, too do not watch television. I DO work, will be going back to school for my first degree soon, and share the same nonetheless.

I notice when I watch television, I am reminded of all the hate, stress, and evil in the outside world, and it raises my stress level ALOT. Not that I don't care about people, because I do. As a former US Army soldier, I have put years into acting on my care for people. It's just that people don't care about eachother in the world of TV and whatnot. I don't expect them to.

In EQ, I notice it is different for the most part. Sure, we get pretty mean to eachother sometimes on the message boards, or even in games at times, but here's where it differs:

You actually SEE perfect strangers helping eachother in EQ. Nobody will decide to act against you or your family based on such idiotic things as race, religion, or sexual preference (excpet maybe the NPC's) 8)...

I get my news from the net, as well. I find I can get the facts without all the clotted BS and propoganda you see on the TV networks.

I believe EQ probably prolonged that kid's life. His mom should be thankful that he found a community where he was accepted and treated like a human being (and no, people, alot of peeps in RL do not even give eachother the common respect or decency due to someone just for being HUMAN anymore), and it probably cheered him up quite a bit. His mother should be glad that EQ stepped in, and, at least for a while, filled the void SHE had a major hand in creating.

I am not a disliked person in RL. I once was though. I know the HELL, and I mean UTTER hell it is to be treated the way some people are. When I see someone going through that, I begin to feel like it is happening to me again. I am very sympathetic with the emotional torture select kids will go through in school nowadays that is always dished out upon them by large crowds all at one time. I am very aware of the physical torture they undergo, as they are jumped and beaten in the streets by those same people, just because they are the chosen targets. I am also very aware of the mental torture that lasts for a LIFETIME due to this, because nobody is willing to even recognize it happens unless they are the ones going through it.

THERE is the story for 48 Hours, but it's not the majority of the population that goes through that, so it won't bring up their ratings.

I really do feel for this guy's mom, but I understand his point of view well. People need to learn that we need to address the issues at the ROOT of our problems, instead of trying to condemn the few things that actually help people endure said problems.

/rant off
Consider The Source
# Jan 09 2003 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
To the average "non-EQer" we are odd, strange, and a puzzle. I have many friends who do not play ( including my hubby ) who are baffeled at the time I devote to this game. HERE LIES THE TRUTH...it is a game. We all know it and play of our own free will. If I choose to be out every evening, drinking and warming a bar stool, to some that is more acceptable. CBS needs something ANYTHING to draw the masses to their station. If EQ is their bait, so be it. We all know the truth and and their ignorance is displayed boldly.

I would rather play EQ which has at least mental thought required as opposed to allowing my brain to be pickled while watching boring and thoughtless TV retoric.

I did not watch the TV special for just the reason I see was written about here. STAND UP BE PROUD! We may play EQ but we aren't society rejects. Perhaps CBS should have given out that Doctors office number. HEAVEN FORBID a non EQer take their child there. He might gate out to go play golf, not heal a patient due to lack of mana, or worse yet make you wait an extra 10 minutes while he works a faction issue in Thurg.

GET REAL CBS AND THOSE WHO HAVE PROBLEMS, there are far worse issues that should be dealt with then the assumption of addicted game players. Perhaps it is CBS who is addicted. ADDICTED TO SPEWING FILTH.

*Just some thoughts I wanted to share...Now I must go back to playing, for if I do not surely the shakes will start!*

Haha
Jelark Marlo 61 Enchanter Mith Marr
RE: Consider The Source
# Jan 15 2003 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
here, here!!!

Ok.. so instead of running down to the local bar to drink too much and pick up men or driving home drunk... I play Everquest. ya.. I can see how that would be 'evil' ;-)

Nicely said.. Thank you Jelark
Eornia
# Jan 04 2003 at 4:12 PM Rating: Default
"- There are other well-recognized non-physical addictions such as gambling or shopping. (pg. 70)"

Again, misuse of a word. The media likes to use words like addiction and war ( as is War on Drugs, War on Crime, etc [IT'S NOT A FRIGGIN WAR PEOPLE]) to make a topic or issue spicy and more interesting for the audience.

People can stop gambling and shopping as fast as I can quit playing EQ. The reason they don't is because they ENJOY it, and they do not have the self restrant to limit themselves to do it within their means.

It's so much easier to pass the blame in all aspects of society. We're all victims of something! It's not our fault! Right? It could never be that you have no willpower to set personal limits could it? Nah, must be addiction. There's a catchy name!

I can see it now. In 10 years there will be <insert game here> Anonomous meetings in every town in America:
"Hi, my name is Eornia and I have a level 65 magician with 200+ days /played time."
"Hi Eorn.."
"No wait that's not my name! That's my character's name! OMG this game has warped me out of reality! Quick I need an evac! ARGH! NO! HELP! PLEASE HELP ME!"

I'm going to start a classaction lawsuit against these evil game manufacturers and get millions of dollars right after I get my money from the tobacco settlement I have coming, since both of these evil corperations MADE me buy their products through mind control and misinformation.
#Anonymous, Posted: Dec 12 2002 at 7:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hi wits de crack? Ken wit a mean pol?? ur a f#ckd up, f#kin idiot so u r!
RE: crak from leith
# Jan 01 2003 at 4:13 AM Rating: Default
You must tell me...where you learned to write like this! It is so...so...original. Yes, that's it...original. And where you learned to type as well! Very interesting.

Edited, Wed Jan 1 03:55:27 2003
RE: crak from leith
# Jan 01 2003 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
If only to let us avoid that source of learning.
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